A reader named Jason Sparks shared the video content below, regarding the service several employees of the Holly Hill (FL) Police Dept. provided to him recently, via the Cop Block Submissions page. Under the pretense that he was carrying a weapon they confronted him and attempted to force him to submit to an illegal search. Fortunately, Jason knows his rights and was ready to film the people threatening him. So, they eventually left without violating his privacy or committing any sort of violent attack upon him.

Holly Hill FL Illegal Search AttemptDate of Incident: February 11, 2015
Individuals Involved: Officer Booneville, Officer Milne, Officer Champion and at least one other unidentified employee of the Holly Hill Police Dept.
Outfit Involved: Holly Hill (FL) Police Department
Contact: Stephen Aldrich – Police Chief
Phone: 386-248-9475
Fax: 386-248-9480
Email: [email protected]
Area Cop Block Affiliate: There are numerous Cop Block groups (see bottom of post for list of known affiliates) within Florida, including Florida Cop Watch. In addition, if you live outside Florida, you can find the appropriate affiliate in your area by consulting the Cop Block Groups page or by Starting a Local Group.

Florida Cop Block Affiliates

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“Pulled Over Walking. Cops Say I Have a Weapon.”


  1. Murica! He likes the attention.

    1. He is just getting cops used to Americans flexing their rights.

    2. Well, if he is detained by the respectable and professional police officer, he can be put in handcuffs and his little camera footage would be postponed until a later time. (Michigan v Summers)

      1. I think there would have to be some other articulation about potential weapons, flight etc. “You are being detained while I conduct my investigation.”

        Summers dealt with the execution of a lawful search warrant, not what amounts to a roadside investigatory stop. It does sound like the police had some cause to detain him (ie trespass, disorderly) but within minutes it was cleared up.


        1. CS:
          The dumb of the videographer really hurt my head.

          CBers…..why do you think its street court? Where did you get this idea that an officer has tell you what crime it is that you commited when you are stopped.? Please tell you don’t really think that’s the law.
          RS (or what you goofs call RAS) doesn’t require need/mean a apecific crime.has been identified. Boiled down…it is…is crime afoot. Based on an officers training and experience….is it reasonable to believe that crime is afoot.

          In this video….the thing we again can’t see….is the videographer.
          The officer pretty clearly states what he saw.
          Now I have a problem with them not being certain enough to frisk the guy if they went to the trouble to stop him for it. Of course….we don’t know what lead up,to,this stop and we can’t see him at all…..but at that point you’ve stopped him for it…..frisk him for it.
          All that is required is RS…..not PC.
          I really don’t know where the CBers get that stuff.

          1. Technically, not providing an ID upon request of a respectful and professional police officer under the detainment of reasonable suspicion could be considered establishing probable cause for an arrest for an obstruction of justice/resisting without violence to present an ID upon request of a police officer.
            CBers don’t understand simple procedure of RS. They think it is only for a crime that has been committed, when in fact the proper terminology is “committed, committing, or about to commit” a crime. The act of not complying or refusing to present an ID upon request of a police officer under RS is committing or is about to commit a crime, which is obstruction of justice/resisting without violence.
            Unfortunately, this Guy was lucky; However, some people learn the hard-way.

          2. I would agree with you IF they were investigating something that occurred outside their presence.
            But something like is being discussed in this incident….my opinion would be that I don’t need his OD if he’s not carrying a concealed weapon. Apparently that’s the issue here and apparently wherever this took place it must be illegal for him to be carrying one.
            Where I work….without some other known fact…..just the carrying wouldn’t beinvestigateable.

          3. Not in the stop-and-identify states. RAS in those states requires you to orally state your identity, that may be name only, name and address, or more. If you do that you can’t be arrested unless the RAS becomes PC, and that doesn’t come from not carrying ID or not presenting it. Now is it gamed? Sure.

            Nor are you obstructing because you aren’t showing an ID, because you aren’t required to carry an ID by either state or Federal law. You just aren’t. How can you obstruct by not showing ID when you aren’t required to carry ID?

            “The act of not complying or refusing to present an ID upon request of a
            police officer under RS is committing or is about to commit a crime,
            which is obstruction of justice/resisting without violence” Only if the state makes it a crime to not present an ID, there may be states that do but I don’t know how that would survive even a state Supreme Court unless there is also a state law requiring that everyone carry a state approved ID. And I don’t know if that latter law would survive SCOTUS.

          4. f*ck off, pig.

          5. No it’s not the law. It should be a courtesy of one citizen to another, or just respect from one human being to another. But then when a profession calls people motherfuckers, bitches, etc., respect shouldn’t be expected because the profession isn’t capable of showing it.

            “or what you goofs call RAS”, you do realize you’ve used RAS to emphasize “Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion”? You even called me on “reasonable suspicion” to make the point it was “reasonable articulable suspicion” when it was important to you that the officer could articulate why and thus justifying his suspicion. Didn’t one court say it has to be articulable so as to drive it from hunch?

            “doesn’t require need/mean a apecific crime.has been identified. Boiled down…it is…is crime afoot. Based on an officers training and experience….is it reasonable to believe that crime is afoot.” (BTW, “is it reasonable” is a question, not a statement.) So let me get this right: you have no idea what crime, just that there is a crime afoot. That crime could be rape or robbery, murder or burglary, or any other, you just know it’s afoot. Maybe that’s why “articulable” was added.

          6. Ray:

            W O W .

            A CBer has the nerve to use the that word. I stopped right there….no need to go any further.

          7. “A CBer…”. Right. You still have a real problem in making distinctions about people and between people and groups. I’m not a CBer, I’ve never done anything CBer like in actions, I don’t agree with the underlying political philosophy here, and I’ve agreed with you when I’ve found a reason to agree. I’ve said this all before, and yet you have to seemingly always go back to your first thought no matter how mistaken. A psychologist could help you with that. Do you know one?

            But it does serve you well in keeping your mind closed through non-existent dichotomies. In other words, you keep making shit up thinking it’s real. I see a pattern here that exists in all you write, and continues no matter how often you are called on it.

            BTW, I was taught courtesies by a woman born while Queen Victoria reigned and a year started with “18”. I observe them, even when I have power over someone. They are subtle things not dictated by the whims of others, nor the ego of authority.

          8. CBers being courteous.

            Still funny.

    3. Oh my
      He’s a special kinda stupid.

  2. Do NOT try this if black, brown and/or speak with an accent.

      1. Don’t forget they will try to use pets as target practice too. Thug cops are a threat to all.

      2. Or white male if the cops think you have a gun. It just depends on the cop. They’re people, as good or bad as the rest of us, with special incentive to be corrupt.

        In open carry states where it’s perfectly legal to have a gun on your hip, or to carry a rifle like Texas, a lot of cops freak over it. Doesn’t matter sex or color, or ethnic origin.

    1. Or white. Look it up, whites get murdered by them too, and quite often.

    2. You rite about that shiii. My Black ass would’a been Shot, Beat, Chocked, Cuffed, Dead and Jailed.

      1. Lucky he’s an Educated White Guy (EWG) and thus immune to their fascist powers! [sniff….wish *I* was an EWG…goshdarnit]

      1. Again, Mr. Hanky stalking. Classy guy, Kelly classy!

    3. lolololololololol

  3. Well done Son, you earned your case of beer for that one!

  4. I think this guy is a jerk. This guy give legal carry people a bad name. He should be thrown in jail. He just want the attention. He just doesn’t know have to shut up and turn off the damn camera. A street lawyer…

    1. You are just one of the reason’s why COPS are the way they are these days. Just allow them to violate your rights..and be on their way.

      1. I didn’t hear the police cussing at him or raising their voices. I suppose if someone called in the may have a gun, the police wanted to check it out. He would act a jerk. I have carried since my early 20’s and I’m 60 now and never had issues like this. I have many police friends and the cramp I hear about lawful carrying people are overwhelming. If asked to lift your shirt is know big deal. Look up compiling with an officers orders or direction and see what it said. Not sure how that reads in your state. Like I said, the guys a jerk. I respect our opinion also.

        1. Its not about cussing..its about police who have continued to walk away from the Constitution and do what they will while so many allow it..They always say “Some one called or a person down the street said this or that, trying to justify probable cause. If I am confronted, and I have a gun..if it comes out, the trigger I will be pulling. All firearms laws are unconstitutional in America-without exception. I am no Gun nut, I am no criminal..But I do not believe in allowing the Constitution to be used for toilet paper by those who wear a badge.

          1. These white privileged people don’t , won’t and can’t understand this . They are not the subjects of harassment as some others are . These are your classic poor white trash yet still republican ( go figure ) there are no bad cop thinking people . As ignorant as the cops who would harass , detain and shoot and kill innocent or otherwise detain-able people . Denny R …. You are the dumb-ass of the week . Please go to your nearest police precinct to collect your prize ….. One free asskicking via the “good” cops ….

          2. You should educate yourself on the terry stop, which isnt considered a search under the 4th.

        2. And you’re definitely a white guy …

        3. Sorry but you’re wrong, the only orders that we have to comply with are Lawful orders. The key word is “Lawful” look it up.

          1. I’m wrong, so acting a dick is right. I seem to disagree with that. Watch it carefully and see the bullie really is. Might be I’m a bit older and wiser than you. Like I said, I respect your opinion as long as my opinion is respected. Here a suggestion for all of you, see if the police has a ride along program and go spend a shift or two with them. Maybe you tunnel vision eye sight will be open. Acting as an jerk if you are a CCW gives all of us a bad name. By the time this person was done acting a fool, four officers were tied up. That was their protection and four your to so know got hurt. It was an attention seeking behavior, that was clear on his part. That was a jerk, so he videoed it as he said for everyone’s protection. No to put it on u tube for all to see. Attention again. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, I’m expressing my opinion and you don’t like it. If you could see how you respond to my opinion, you would answer than stop. Again its for attention. To every response there is another response. On here people will say want you want to say. Then on the other side of the side, people are going to say thing you you don’t like to hear…

          2. No where, not once* in the video, did he say he had a weapon, as a matter of fact (if you listened to both sides of the conversation) you will hear the civilian say {multiple times} that he does NOT have a weapon.

            Remember please, that just because he didn’t have a gun, he didn’t have to allow the ILLEGAL search of his person. Refusal is not an admission of guilt.

          3. its the only thing he didn’t say …for a guy who isn’t going to talk with the cops he somehow managed to talk non stop …sometimes for minutes on end without breathing… about the 50th time he said “the constitution of the United States it was even clear to the stupid cop that this guy had the IQ of warm beer

          4. Denny I do respect your opinion, it’s your right to have it and express it. Altough opinion is just that, an opinion. Someone may not agree with one or the others opinion and that’s fine, what I was replying to in your statement was concerning a incorrect fact you claimed. A person does not have to comply with a unlawful order, that in itself is fact. I’ll agree I did have a smart tone with my “Look it up” statement but that was in direct response to you saying to look it up. You seem to be okay with just complying with what ever is asked just to make their job easier and I respect that because it’s your choice. As for me I will not just blindly comply with what a officer asks of me unless it is a lawful order. You see it as the guy was just being a pain in the ass and making their job harder for the attention. I disagree with that also and here is why, he did not approach the officers, they approached him. They had no lawful reason to approach him, if I remember correctly from the video prior to this he got some video of a interaction they had with someone else. This in my guess pissed them off as we’ve saw in many other video’s, so they were making up a reason to mess with him. As for the ride along that you suggest, my Dad was a local police officer here where we live through out my whole childhood. Yes there were bad officer’s then (I’ve heard the stories) but for the most part that was a time when there was some honor in wearing the badge. Things have changed now and it’s because of the cops actions that have caused this and they are the only people that can change it. If not then things will continue to get worse and as you see the people are very tired of it. I suggest that a person should NEVER speak to a cop but if you have to RECORD RECORD RECORD.

          5. The other thing no one is looking at is we get to see what the vedio shows. So was it the beginning or later. As far as complying with the direction that is the law. You make it sound, they threw the first stone. You need to attend Law Enforcement week. The virgal part. You might have a different thought. You father was a cop ask him about it. Watts riot was when things changed. It was not the police that started that. Also during the Kennedy time so the 60’s

          6. jesus fucking christ learn to use the right goddamn word. Fucking sixty years on this earth and you don’t know how to fucking spell. The only reason I would ride around with a cop is to figure out where that motherfucker lived.

          7. you must realize that this site is a game for a lot of people. The opinions expressed on this site are probably not the true opinions of the writer. Like myself, I’m playing the character of an egomaniac bigot. I find the character very amusing. But to be truthful there is no fixing the corruption issue we have in law enforcement. I don’t think it’s a law enforcement issue, I think it’s a human emotion issue mixed with greed and love of power. We will always live with these problems until emotion can be turned off and we exist as a completely logical species.

        4. Please be subservient. It becomes you.

    2. Just curious if you think the cops were also jerks? Looks like he was justified in his actions based on the outcome. What I see is that the cops were acting like bullies with a badge..maybe they give good cops a bad name

      Remember, those with power need to be the most judicial in the use of said power.

      1. That’s your opinion. I see as the police saw something and asked. The guy in the video raised his voice and cussed at the police. That’s being a jerk. The office saw something and he asked. To me raising one shirt is simple. The police can not remove the weopan or check its numbers. If he feels a crime as been committed is another story. When CCW act this way, it gives the police to respond in this matter. He could have gotten his message across not acting a fool. I respect your opinion as I hope my opinion is respected too.

        1. it’s possible they saw something…but it doesn’t give them the right to do any sort of search “just because’….if you want to give your rights away then please feel free. I will be happy to keep my rights and if necessary fight for my God given rights as defined by the founders of our great country…God given rights, not man-made rights that can be taken away.

        2. It’s not about being a jerk or not. Its the fact that the cop is abusing his civil rights. How can we consider us a civilized nation if our public servants abuse their authority.

        3. Police cuss with regularity, especially when a few of them are handing one their ass..I don’t talk to cops, never called a cop in my life for any reason..but I did serve 10 years in Prison, after just 3 weeks out of the Army after a small town cop pulled me over just to ask who I was and where I was going. After he checked my license he asked where I was going, (after 17 years in the Army) I wasn’t sure where I was going..just driving..I told him where I was going was none of his business. He got pissed and grabbed my left arm and tried to take me off my feet..I broke his jaw with my right hand and took his sidearm and emptied it and replaced it in his holster..then here his buddies came..10 years for protecting myself.

          1. I doubt it.

          2. But his story has such a ring of truth to it.

          3. You doubt this guy did ten years for touching a cop? Really? Or was it the whole “emptied his gun” part? be more specific with your snide remarks, please. C’mon. Put a little effort into it. :)

        4. Some people, unlike you, don’t want to be ass-kissing cop sycophants. But you keep sucking their ass, ok?

        5. just how far down your throat is that cops dick. Obviously you’re an apologist, and you will be attacked as one.

      2. My point EXACTLY !!! If he were wrong in ANY type of way , he’d have been in handcuffs and in the back of one of those cruisers ( if not shot and killed by some coward in uniform ) . No , the cops were wrong PERIOD !! Denny R , you’re probably a security guard with cop aspirations that will never come to fruition . Another potential George Zimmerman ( if you will ) . You sure have an awful lot to say in the defense of some cops that were CLEARLY wrong in their actions . May I ask what your damned problem is ?

        1. You have a racial problem, my friend. Get over it.

          I am white, educated, make money, DESPISE both liberals and neo-conservative progressives, and I’m sure I’ve done more to combat this type of behavior from police than you ever will.

          Zimmerman? Sweet Christ, read the facts of that case before you go spewing that stuff, please.

          Of course the cops were wrong. It’s in the video, he was recording a stop they were doing, and they detained him after with a bogus weapon suspicion.

          Some advice. You lose ALL ability to convey a point to someone the second you start screaming racist due to not agreeing with you. That said, Denny R. needs a reality check. I have had police make bogus drugs, weapon, and other allegations to search my vehicle before. Cops can legally lie, can fabricate reasons for search or even murder, and are doing so on a more and more consistent basis. I understand your older than most here. I am 41, a veteran, and have been all over this country. I haven’t left the house without a ;pistol since I was 16 years old. And for you to be 60, and never had an encounter like this before tells me you didn’t move around that much. It’s not the make of the model, it’s the mileage.

          And one more thing. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. And like it or not, the facts outweigh your opinions.

    3. Jail for being a jerk? You think cops should lock people in a cage for being mad for being bothered when having done nothing wrong? Do you have any idea of how much of a nazi you sound like right now?

    4. Please get Common Sense’s little dick out of your mouth.

  5. its always a win for the pigs when they harass you under any pretext for exercising your right to record them because they are on the clock.

  6. Oooooh, hey! What’s with the mouth? There could be women and children walking around and he is cursing-up a storm out loud in public, while acting like an idiot.

    1. I know. And cops always use such clean language, don’t they……

  7. The Prostitutes are the Pigs of the Nazi Police State. One we must resist.

    1. That’s… almost poetic, in a way.

    2. That’s an insult to prostitutes everywhere…

  8. officer have i created a breach of the peace with my action here?


    then why are you breaching my peace?

    in texas a certified peace officer >>OR ANY OTHER PERSON<< may arrest without a warrant when a felony or a breach of the peace has been committed in his presence

    once you speak the words you are under arrest for a breach of the peace its resisting arrest; fleeing; assault; battery; etc. created by them.

    texas penal code 14.01

  9. I believe we are just seeing the beginning of the end of USA.

    1. the beginning of the end started a hundred and two years ago with the creation of the Federal Reserve.

      1. I think of the ICC. It was the first quasi-legislative organization in the Executive Branch.
        Or maybe earlier with the Reconstruction Amendments, that by 1924 changed the fundamental relationship between the States and the Federal government.
        Or maybe later with the FDIC that clearly extended FBI power beyond just Federal lands.
        Or maybe it was the Volstead Act, which did that even earlier…
        It’s really a tapestry. You know, I feel the earth move under my feet…

        1. even if most have good intentions, I feel that the few who don’t have good intentions seem to control the rest. We get back to the psychopath argument. people with good intentions can be controlled by their emotions quite easily.

  10. Should have told him to ask his wife about the only weapon you ever carry, because she is VERY familiar with it.

  11. Another copblocker who thinks he knows the law better than the police. The officer asked you if you were carrying a weapon. You then went off about your “rights” and didn’t answer the officers questions. You were doing something that aroused suspicion. You continually told the officer to back away. If he didn’t’ what were you going to do? Obviously pee your pants. The officers were nice to you and you were the one hollering and acting like a goof. They didn’t know what you had. The more aggressive you became, the more police officers showed up.

    1. Obviously he did know the law better than the cops, or else he would have been taken to jail right. Also it’s none of the cops business what he has unless they had probable cause to believe he was or has committed a crime. I know, you cops or want a be cops which ever you are just hate that pesky Constitution And Bill of Rights.

      1. They did have probable cause. They thought he was carrying a concealed weapon. This guy has been busted many times by the police. I’ve seen a number of his videos on youtube mostly he ends up in jail and loses in court.

        1. That’s not PC never has been and never will be. Just the act of carrying is not enough to establish PC/RS. In Florida v JL, scotus ruled that police receiving an anonymous call that a black man at a bus stop was not sufficient to establish RS. They also refused to create a gun exception to the Terry Doctrine as they were asked. This would have allowed the stop of persons suspected of carrying without having legal cause. In US V Black, a ruling from the 4th circuit, the court stated in that case that “the default status is not felon in possession of a firearm”
          What you stated was the cops had PC because he was concealed carrying. Support that with case law.

          1. Apparently the officers felt there was a reason to checkout the author. Also, he would have been concealed carrying.

          2. Their feelings are not legal. PC is not generated simply by carrying either openly or concealed as you stated. There has to be other mitigating factors besides the simple act of carrying. The courts have been clear on this.

          3. I disagree. There was obviously something that alarmed the officers. At the end of the video, the guy left. All is well that ends well.

          4. There had to be something else because the fact he was carrying alone isn’t justified for a stop.

          5. YF:
            Dude…that’s REALLY wrong. That case wouldn’t be applicable in anyway to this. The officers SAW this weapon.

          6. I agree. I was responding to his claim the fact he was carrying was PC. That is not true!

          7. RAS isn’t generated by open-carry in an open-carry state. Nor is a call-to-service over a guy open-carrying in an open-carry state. Yet police detain…

            And it certainly isn’t PC. I had breakfast at Village Inn this morning, and horrors, there was a guy open-carrying. We all died.

            Thus police should always be alarmed…like all of us when a gun is pulled and bullets are sprayed all over the place.

        2. Still haven’t seen an upvote for any of your comments…except that one you logged out to make yourself……right after I mentioned it.

          By your logic, cops can totally throw out the fourth amendment whenever they want to by saying that they “thought he had a weapon”. So, why do we even have a fourth amendment? What does it mean to you?

          And how’s that chimpanzee fetish of your going? Still looking to have sex with them? Too bad they jump fences, though or you’d be my daddy. Right? (no I’m not letting that go)

  12. this video bothers me, enough to make an account in Disqus just to post this comment.. People like this annoy the shit out of me. “my camera is considered a weapon” shut the hell up.. cops already have miserable lives and this guy is trying to show off his knowledge of his rights and make these two cops lives even more miserable. He was checking to make sure he wasnt going to be a danger to anyone, and this guy saws he feels “afraid for his life,” are you kidding me?? i dont agree with everything that cops do, but this guy is being a pain in the ass because “he has the right to be” wasting a cops time when all he has to do is lift his fricken shirt up. no bueno.

    1. “All he had to do”…..People like you bother me. Where is the line? When does it go from “all he had to do” to “he even had to”? Is it where “all he had to do was strip naked, bend over and spread those cheeks so the officer could see he wasn’t carrying anything in his ass.”? To some of us, there is no difference between the two. It’s called the fourth amendment, by the way. Look it up. The cops even admitted they stopped him because he “had a bulge in his pocket”. Oh dear God, he must be a terrorist if he has something in his pocket. Tackle him, gang rape him, do whatever it takes to find out what is in his pocket. Is that what you are suggesting? He should just comply, no matter what the request. Especially if the request seems like a “small matter”?
      So he was filming them. “If they have nothing to hide”….Yeah, he might come off as kind of a jerk, but anymore one has to if they don’t want to get railroaded by cops making up stuff as they go along.
      And really, “cops already have miserable lives”? What the Hell? They get paid on average somewhere around $60k/year to mostly sit in a car and watch traffic go by. When they actually DO have to get out and do something, they bully their way through conversations and intimidate people into doing their jobs for them by incriminating themselves. When they can’t do that, they make stuff up. Whatever it takes to get that ticket written or those handcuffs on a perp so they won’t get bitched at by their boss. Yeah, sounds miserable to me. We should all just “do what they say, no matter what”, huh?

      (making a disqus account was SO hard, too)

      1. i didn’t post to create an argument pickle, i was expressing my opinion, i understand theres a line, but it seems like this guy goes around looking to start problems with cops and that bothers me. i’m not saying any of this to argue with you because we obviously have two polar opposite viewpoints and that’s fine, just my opinion

      2. Police in metropolitan areas, like Phoenix metro, can make low 6 figures with a pension to match. And that number has to be compared to the cost-of-living-index. Phoenix metro is still way cheaper than the LA-San Diego metro area where the pay is roughly the same.

        In other words, they took the job knowing the job, and, no, pay isn’t low everywhere. In fact, it can be quite good, even better with the pension at 50-55. The PPP of US citizens is about $54,000, without the pension.

  13. More lying pieces of shit.

  14. I want to see Isis types of videos of these police locked in small cages and lit on fire. Make sure to leave the sound and don’t put music over it. The sounds of their screams are like lullabies in my ears. Fucking scumbag pigs.

    1. So you have a lot in common with ISIS. Thank you for adding nothing.

      1. that’s a nice try at affiliating me with a terrorist organization, but the only thing I have in common with Isis is their taste in video. whoever’s editing it, has a good eye for it.

        1. “I want to see Isis types of videos of these police locked in small cages and lit on fire.” So you have a lot in common with ISIS, you like how they kill people and you like the video. You just want the video to be about people you want to kill.

          Burning someone to death is the act of a very sick person. Killing people because they belong to a class, a profession, or any reason of “they belong to a group” is the act of a sick person. But that’s just me because my morality doesn’t allow it, your mileage obviously varies.

          1. I don’t worry about morality. Morality is for those with the weakness of emotion.

          2. Glib, and nothing more. Sociopaths, for example, think morality is based on emotion because they have no ability to empathize, and then think morality is just about that.

            Morality is based on reason, even most religious morality, not emotion. Emotion doesn’t look to the end point, reason does as best it can.

          3. there is no question I’m a sociopath. The only reason I abide by our laws is because I don’t care for a cage. Not out of some illusionary idea of furthering a civilized society.

          4. Damn, I like your honesty. I have never had a person admit to being a sociopath. I applaud you for your honesty. And no more than that.

            Sociopaths obviously think that furthering a civilized society is an illusion because it takes morality to further a civilized society and sociopaths don’t accept morality. Sociopaths that never rise to a position of control face the consequences of morality. The sociopaths that do rise to control do impede, even destroy, furthering a civilized society. For a sociopath, everything is about them, they can’t make a civilized society so it must be an illusion,

            You, the sociopath, hinder. If you were the only problem…

          5. my kind are legion. Civilized society is used only to meet our end goals. even a sociopath wants to live nicely. And there must be a slave class to create our toys. emotions are the most efficient tools to control the slaves. because most are slaves to their emotion.

          6. Now I can’t take you seriously. A sociopath would be more circumspect.

          7. a true sociopath would never admit to it. Part of their survival method is to use others as they see fit, and that would include never letting them know that they are being used. Their emotionless state keeps them from trivial mistakes that those that are burdened with emotions make.

          8. Yeah, but this is on-line.

            An emotionless state doesn’t insure against trivial mistakes, or non-trivial. We make them because we, including the sociopath, do not have the capability to avoid them. Some make it a hobby, some a career, but we all make mistakes, trivial or not.

            Live long and prosper.

          9. I believe the above statement of mine is true, just replace the word we with a they. I see the problem as being that the only people that want power are the power hungry. It doesn’t take a psychopath to be hungry for that power. however, if a psychopath is going against A well-meaning normal human, the psychopath will win because he doesn’t care who is hurt by his actions. He is only worried that his actions will suit his purpose. the current political process in the United States benefits of this type of behavior. thus giving us heads of state and heads of company that are of a psychopathic nature.

          10. “I see the problem as being that the only people that want power are the power hungry.” That smacks of a tautology. G. Washington, the first President under the Constitution, refused to serve more than two full terms. In fact he set the tradition that FDR broke. If he came to power because he was power-hungry, he was obviously sated early, unlike FDR. I have no doubt that FDR would have run for a fifth term, and won. But ego is not sociopathy.

            If only that process were restricted to the USA. The political and social processes of all human cultures allow a sociopath to rise to the top just as much as someone that can empathize while having to make hard decisions. As you pointed out earlier, it’s really hard to distinguish one form from the other.

          11. I don’t believe a sociopath could make it through the political process very easy, but a psychopath most certainly would. People that have a conscience generally have emotions, and as such are controlled by those emotions mixed with logic. people that strive for power, strive for control over others. if that power happens to be commercial or corporate, and money is the end goal and they don’t care who they hurt to get it. Psychopaths run everything, there is no denying it.

          12. There’s not a whole lot of difference between a psychopath and sociopath. Both have strategies, and neither have empathy.

            Emotions temper reason, and reason tempers emotions. Emotions give us sympathy and empathy, a way to understand beyond ourselves, a way to understand beyond our selfish egos. Reason without emotion is just as likely to be selfish ego as emotion without reason is selfish ego.

            If you believe psychopaths and sociopaths run everything and that it’s undeniable, then nothing I could write would dissuade you. You’ve made your weltanschauung. May it serve you well.

          13. there is a tremendous amount of difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. Sociopath is a psychopath, but a psychopath isn’t necessarily a sociopath. my belief in who runs everything does not change the fact of who runs everything. I don’t believe there’s a billionaire alive that isn’t a psychopath. Unless they inherited the money. I think you may be under the illusion that there’s not that many psychopaths around. in a city of 1 million, there will be 10,000 psychopaths. There is a world of difference between a low functioning psychopath and a high functioning psychopath. you would find it extremely difficult to distinguish the difference between a normal person with ambition and a high functioning psychopath with ambition. also one must remember that there’s different levels of psychopathy. Psychopathy is a medical condition where people have a significantly reduced microstructural integrity between the white matter connecting the amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex. being a psychopath is not black or white. I think you would be surprised how many psychopaths you know, but don’t know that they’re psychopaths.

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